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Is ON the line, in OR out?
Seems to be a hard rule to find in the book... if anyone can link it, that'd be swell!
-Brad
P.S. Can any other captains that were at the Rules clinic that can back me up on the fact that all captains were told by the league admin to stop play when a rule disagreement came up and solve it before play resumed?... i took a lot of flack from the other team for not letting play continue today until we found it. We didn't find it after about 10 min of looking so we had to continue in order to keep some peace. |
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Found it...
IX.In- and Out-of-bounds
A.The entire playing field is in-bounds.The perimeter lines are not part of the playing field and are out-of-bounds.
B.The out-of-bounds area consists of the ground which is not in-bounds and everything in contact (direct or indirect) with it except for players. Any non-players other than observers are considered part of the out-of-bounds area.
C.A player contacting the out-of-bounds area is out-of-bounds. A player who is not out-of-bounds is in-bounds. An airborne player retains in-bounds or out-of-bounds status until that player contacts the playing field or the out-of-bounds area. |
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| BLUE Crunch (Brad M) wrote: | | ... A player contacting the out-of-bounds area is out-of-bounds. |
So if a player catches the disc with their foot on the line means they are out of bounds, and turnover time. However if they catch a disc with one foot completely in-bounds and the other foot in the air hovering over the line means they are still in-bounds and play resumes.
Correct? |
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correct, the first point of cantact is where you make the call from... if 1 foot lands and then the other, the first foot is where you call it.
if both feet land at the same time, and even a toe is on the line (or out) you are out of bounds and its a turn over |
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| BLUE Crunch (Brad M) wrote: | I
P.S. Can any other captains that were at the Rules clinic that can back me up on the fact that all captains were told by the league admin to stop play when a rule disagreement came up and solve it before play resumed?... i took a lot of flack from the other team for not letting play continue today until we found it. We didn't find it after about 10 min of looking so we had to continue in order to keep some peace. |
Right-o. I was there. I was one of the flack-givers, because I am there to P-L-A-Y. I almost fell over when you said the above, I was surprised to hear this.
We wasted a lot of time over this dispute when we could have just returned the disc to the thrower and played on. If this is what is supposed to happen, I think this policy needs to be reviewed. The rules seem to be built so that play keeps going and calls are handled quickly and reasonably, even in the event of a dispute. We can hash out exactly what the rule applied, what should have happened, and optionally who should be spanked  AFTER the game is over and/or on the forum. Then the team captains can take the information to the players at the next game or team practice.
The bottom line: I love to play, I come to play, Ultimate is a fast-paced game, let's keep it that way
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| BLUE Crunch (Brad M) wrote: |
P.S. Can any other captains that were at the Rules clinic that can back me up on the fact that all captains were told by the league admin to stop play when a rule disagreement came up and solve it before play resumed?... i took a lot of flack from the other team for not letting play continue today until we found it. We didn't find it after about 10 min of looking so we had to continue in order to keep some peace. |
Can anyone confirm this policy?
I am a big fan of learning/confirming/playing by the rules, but stopping play indefinitely on a field we are all paying $ to play on seems like a lot to give up. "Contest" or "no contest" and play on. If it appears the disagreement is deeper (different interpretation of rules), just agree to disagree (contest)... acknowledge the disagreement and spend sometime next point or end of the game to talk things over.
But... if it's league policy to stop play until rule is resolved, I'll need to start putting quick stickies on my rulebook. |
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It is always a good idea to make sure rules are interpreted correctly. Stopping play and referring to the flowchart or the rule book should not take that long so long as captains are familiar with the flowchart and rule book. Just giving it back to the thrower, and not resolving the issue, just results in confusion and animosity. Captains must read the rules until they understand them. I read them every year and still don't know them perfectly. If you don't want to waste a lot of game time reading the rules on the sideline then do it at home. Use a highlighter to mark key rules.
Also, captains should attend the rule clinic at the beginning of the season as we go over all these rules in detail.
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The honest truth to this is that for whatever reason, in the 8 or so years that DUC has been around, there is always a surprising number of players that do not know the rules and will just end up having to 'learn as they go'.
Because of this problem, every year it is stressed to the captains to get their players to become familier with the rules a.s.a.p. and each person is given a rule book to look over.
This sport is not ref'ed and leaves it up to the players to sort things out. And because of past problems with players not knowing the rules, the league has told the captains to stop play to sort out rules... even though people just come to play.
It is the responsibility to all captains to get their players to become familier with the rule (we are told this as well at captains meetings).
I believe it is because of people that decide that they 'just want to play' and leave the rules until the end that cause to most problems.
In a perfect ultimate world, all players would read and become familier with the rules of the game they love to play so that there would be no more stopping and arguing.
-Brad |
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XVI. Violations and Fouls
D. If a dispute arises concerning an infraction or the outcome of a play (e.g., a catch where no one had a good perspective), and the teams cannot come to a satisfactory resolution, play stops, and the disc is returned to the thrower and put into play with a check (VIII.D), with the count reached plus one or at six if over five.
XIX. Etiquette
B. It is the responsibility of all players to avoid any delay when starting, restarting, or continuing play. This includes standing over the disc or taking more time than reasonably necessary to put the disc into play.
E. If a novice player commits an infraction out of sincere ignorance of the rules, it should be common practice to stop play and explain the infraction.
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| The Wall wrote: | It is always a good idea to make sure rules are interpreted correctly. Stopping play and referring to the flowchart or the rule book should not take that long so long as captains are familiar with the flowchart and rule book. Just giving it back to the thrower, and not resolving the issue, just results in confusion and animosity. Captains must read the rules until they understand them. I read them every year and still don't know them perfectly. If you don't want to waste a lot of game time reading the rules on the sideline then do it at home. Use a highlighter to mark key rules.
Also, captains should attend the rule clinic at the beginning of the season as we go over all these rules in detail.
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It is extremely for the rules to be understood and interpreted correctly, no doubt about that...
My suggest is not to "just giving it back to the thrower and not resolving the issue". That would be unspirited. It is key to ensure the rules are understood whether on the field or after the point or after the game. The flow chart and rulebookshould but quick, but in this case, it wasn't. And like Brad said, there was a 10 min break and the issue still wasn't resolved, so that didn't help with any confusion and animosity.
Again, I am in agreement with you on the importance of the rule... and if it can be resolved immediately, great! I'd prefer to not lose precious field time. But again, if it is league policy to resolve rule calls before play continues... I'll even start taking my rulebook out of my bag and play with it in my pocket for easy access.
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Well Kevin stated it above but this was posted on the main page under and update.
"Teams should also remember to keep enforcing the rules. If there are disagreements with the rules please try to use the flow chart that we provided at the captains rule clinic to solve any issues. I will also make the flow chart available on the side menu."
I personally have issue sometimes when rules are called. For the reason it holds up the game but more so to the fact that people can get very offended when a rule is called, even more so if they keep getting called on it. I think thats in part why this is being done. The hope is we all learn a rule and fouls won't need to be called as often.
The only issue is this seems to cause the same problem with people getting offended. If a rule is discussed and the game is held off people still get angry. Its pretty much your damned if you do and your damned if you don't, and it shouldn't be that way.
The game was held up for five minutes yes, but if some people listened more and tried to have a decent discussion about it instead of getting angry the situation could be handled faster, game play could continue and it wouldn't create as much animosity on the field.
After the first discussion too many people got pissed off. Both sides. There was arguing and lots of people making inappropriate comments on the field and on the sidelines for all to hear. The spirit of the game was lost. I really did not enjoy a good majority of the last game we played, it was probably my least enjoyable game since a game last year where a player was playing very aggressively and trying to injure our players. |
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| BLUE Crunch (Brad M) wrote: | The honest truth to this is that for whatever reason, in the 8 or so years that DUC has been around, there is always a surprising number of players that do not know the rules and will just end up having to 'learn as they go'.
Because of this problem, every year it is stressed to the captains to get their players to become familier with the rules a.s.a.p. and each person is given a rule book to look over.
This sport is not ref'ed and leaves it up to the players to sort things out. And because of past problems with players not knowing the rules, the league has told the captains to stop play to sort out rules... even though people just come to play.
It is the responsibility to all captains to get their players to become familier with the rule (we are told this as well at captains meetings).
I believe it is because of people that decide that they 'just want to play' and leave the rules until the end that cause to most problems.
In a perfect ultimate world, all players would read and become familier with the rules of the game they love to play so that there would be no more stopping and arguing.
-Brad |
I think being in a division that has a lot of new players such as C or D Division, you should expect people not to know all the rules. There is the quick reference here as well as the long version but, to be honest, the long version of the rules is crazy long!  How may people out there have read the long rules in their first year playing? You mostly rely on your team mates to help you out with them and learn as you go. We have not all been playing that long. That has to be considered. Think about how you learned the rules way back when you started to play.
Mostly people are there in their first year to see if it is a sport for them and to HAVE FUN.
I think it needs to be reiterated that it is how you approach telling people the rules too. If there is an issue with a rule or a player, address it when it happens in a positive way and move on. The game went sour very early on for me with no real need, this was even before this "is the line in or out' debate because members of the other team were heckling me for accidentally running into one of their players. She had no issue with it but other members of the team sure did.
It just felt like a 'picky' game. Everything was being scrutinized and it was making people frustrated and angry. More calls suddenly were being called in the second half and with a game as close as that, it looks like it was being done, not in the spirit of the game but rather to gain an advantage. I heard a player state that how we got the second last point as being 'f***ing cheap' because a call had been made. Attitudes like that rub off. Our team is not a malicious team and we haven't had any issues with spirit up until that game.
It was not an enjoyable game. The spirit was lost. Let's all move on and let our captains go over the rules with us at our next games and be more aware of our team's spirit.
Good luck out there Frosted Flicks. |
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| Music Girl wrote: | | I think being in a division that has a lot of new players such as C or D Division, you should expect people not to know all the rules. There is the quick reference here as well as the long version but, to be honest, the long version of the rules is crazy long! :D |
I totally agree but players especially newer players should be willing to listen to calls so they can learn from them too. I know one player specifically on your team who seemed very new who was saying a lot of these calls we're "Bull****" on the field for everyone to hear or atleast loud enough for me to hear and I wasn't beside him.
| Music Girl wrote: | | I think it needs to be reiterated that it is how you approach telling people the rules too. If there is an issue with a rule or a player, address it when it happens in a positive way and move on. The game went sour very early on for me with no real need, this was even before this "is the line in or out' debate because members of the other team were heckling me for accidentally running into one of their players. She had no issue with it but other members of the team sure did. |
Its unfortunate in these situations because I was off the field when the "is the line in or out" discussion happened. I have no idea how that conversation went. All I know is a lot of people on the sidelines we're making a big fuss about it and they didn't know what was going on. A player from your team even came over to ours commenting on it and making negative comments about some of our players that we're on the field.
I also don't know who was heckling you, but the girl had a right to let you know and she did do it in a very friendly way. Within the first 3 points you kept bumping into her, we all knew it definatly wasn't intentional, but we also wanted you to be aware of it. We've had players hurt in the past because of things like this. Safety should be priority on the field and we just wanted you to be aware of it, to try and learn from it. We didn't want this to ruin your fun playing the game, and I'm sorry if it did and if someone did take it a bit far to "heckle" you.
| Music Girl wrote: | | It just felt like a 'picky' game. Everything was being scrutinized and it was making people frustrated and angry. More calls suddenly were being called in the second half and with a game as close as that, it looks like it was being done, not in the spirit of the game but rather to gain an advantage. I heard a player state that how we got the second last point as being 'f***ing cheap' because a call had been made. Attitudes like that rub off. |
More calls we're called in the second half, on both sides. This is because the anger level grew. I'm sure a few of our calls could be called picky, I didn't always have the best view on things personally to always know. I do know once clearly that we we're called on a foul when two players we're in motion on what I think was the 4th last point. I strongly felt it shouldn't have been but we gave it back to the thrower and played on.
The comment about being "f***ing cheap" I think was more to the fact that your team pulled their regular lines and played all their handlers/best players for the last two points. Someone said what they we're thinking out loud, they should have kept it to themselves, but I have to admit I try to be very friendly and spirited out on that field no matter what and that same comment went through my head, I just didn't voice it. If your talking about spirit, sportsmanship and that this is suppose to be a fun league and less competitive division, why not play your normal lines?
| Music Girl wrote: | Our team is not a malicious team and we haven't had any issues with spirit up until that game.
It was not an enjoyable game. The spirit was lost. Let's all move on and let our captains go over the rules with us at our next games and be more aware of our team's spirit.
Good luck out there Frosted Flicks. |
We're kind of in the same boat, up till now we haven't had a problem with spirit either. I will admit one other game this year there was a very short argument about a rule, but things calmed down and we played on to an enjoyable game and I agree our game was not an enjoyable game. The spirit was lost. Our team will discuss this at our next practice and before our next game. |
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| Calling a team f***ing cheap because they played there best players to win? That seems a little ridiculous, lets not forget this is a sport, at least I thought it was. |
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But its also a game based on spirit and sportsmanship. I thought fun came first? We're not playing in a competitive league here.
Benching players in non-competitive firsbee. Could just be me, but I just don't see it often and would never expect to be benched, expecially in the C or D divisions.
The comment maybe off but to me so is the action of benching players for a few points. |
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| Collosal Crunch wrote: |
Its unfortunate in these situations because I was off the field when the "is the line in or out" discussion happened. I have no idea how that conversation went. All I know is a lot of people on the sidelines we're making a big fuss about it and they didn't know what was going on. A player from your team even came over to ours commenting on it and making negative comments about some of our players that we're on the field.
I also don't know who was heckling you, but the girl had a right to let you know and she did do it in a very friendly way. Within the first 3 points you kept bumping into her, we all knew it definatly wasn't intentional, but we also wanted you to be aware of it. We've had players hurt in the past because of things like this. Safety should be priority on the field and we just wanted you to be aware of it, to try and learn from it. We didn't want this to ruin your fun playing the game, and I'm sorry if it did and if someone did take it a bit far to "heckle" you. |
I totally agree with you, we had a few bumps and she told me and things were fine, it was the other players comments that kept happening until the half time that were disheartening. I wasn't out there for the 'line in or out' debate either so I really can't comment on it.
| Collosal Crunch wrote: | | The comment about being "f***ing cheap" I think was more to the fact that your team pulled their regular lines and played all their handlers/best players for the last two points. Someone said what they we're thinking out loud, they should have kept it to themselves, but I have to admit I try to be very friendly and spirited out on that field no matter what and that same comment went through my head, I just didn't voice it. If your talking about spirit, sportsmanship and that this is suppose to be a fun league and less competitive division, why not play your normal lines? |
Well this is something that is at the discretion of the Captain and the team players. My captain tells me to stay on, I stay on. It is a competitive sport too. We have been so close to winning over our last few games and our team moral really needed a win. We have been up against other teams who have changed lines to gain advantage. It is part of the game. |
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| Collosal Crunch wrote: | But its also a game based on spirit and sportsmanship. I thought fun came first? We're not playing in a competitive league here.
Benching players in non-competitive firsbee. Could just be me, but I just don't see it often and would never expect to be benched, expecially in the C or D divisions.
The comment maybe off but to me so is the action of benching players for a few points. |
If it was a team decision to put on their best players, then it's not really "benching" players.
I've played from C Division to A Division and several times we have done this, or even passed on playing to let a better/faster/handler/whatever player on the team. Especially in close, lets say frustrating games.
Glad to see you have the rules on this sorted out! Like LP said in the other post, please come out to the FREE scimmages every week if you have any questions about rules, set plays, defensive formations, ect. There is always some very experienced players out to answer your questions and help out in any way they can.
Tuesdays and Thursdays at 6:30pm at the Victoria Park Soccer Fields across the road from Iroquious park in whitby. |
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| iain wrote: | But its also a game based on spirit and sportsmanship. I thought fun came first? We're not playing in a competitive league here.
Benching players in non-competitive firsbee. Could just be me, but I just don't see it often and would never expect to be benched, expecially in the C or D divisions.
The comment maybe off but to me so is the action of benching players for a few points. |
If it was a team decision to put on their best players, then it's not really "benching" players.
I've played from C Division to A Division and several times we have done this, or even passed on playing to let a better/faster/handler/whatever player on the team. Especially in close, lets say frustrating games.
Glad to see you have the rules on this sorted out! Like LP said in the other post, please come out to the FREE scimmages every week if you have any questions about rules, set plays, defensive formations, ect. There is always some very experienced players out to answer your questions and help out in any way they can.
Tuesdays and Thursdays at 6:30pm at the Victoria Park Soccer Fields across the road from Iroquious park in whitby.[/QUOTE]
I guess its just new to me since I've been on a team who doesn't do this. I've heard of it happening to someone else before and it got people upset. I understand wanting to win games and all of that. I guess I just take my team, division and this league in different light. We're all paying and all paying to have fun. |
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| I will say that I do agree with following the rules and making everyone aware of rules even if it does mean stopping game momentarily. Now I don't know where the infraction ocurred, but with the rule in question the only way I can see it being enforced is around the outside sidelines where there is actual chalk on the ground, but if it was made down the middle of the field it is pretty impossible even if you have "perspective" on the play to make a proper call as even on a good day some of the cones can be out of line, so I would say that good for noticing the rule but if it happens in the middle of the field and there is a dispute I would say that defering to the rule where the disc goes back to the previous player would be best to avoid animosity and delay of game. |
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It just felt like a 'picky' game. Everything was being scrutinized and it was making people frustrated and angry. More calls suddenly were being called in the second half and with a game as close as that, it looks like it was being done, not in the spirit of the game but rather to gain an advantage. I heard a player state that how we got the second last point as being 'f***ing cheap' because a call had been made. Attitudes like that rub off. Our team is not a malicious team and we haven't had any issues with spirit up until that game.
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I don't think it was as much to gain an advantage as much as it turned into a "you called me on this so I'm calling you on that" type of attitude for some players in particular after the initial line in/out call. (After all, a play or two after the initial in/out call we turned over the disc when our catcher caught it in the end zone but said he was on the line, not much to our advantage.)
The other problem was that some people were afraid of calling things that legitimately should have been called, because they were afraid to be harassed and made to feel stupid for making the calls. We also have several new players this year and it makes it very hard for them to learn and improve when one team one week follows the rules and then the next doesn't.
I am not directing this at you personally as most of the issues were coming from the guys on your team. But the attitude displayed by several of the experienced players of your team seemed to be to let the rules slide. Who on yours or anyone elses bench is to say what rules we follow and what ones we don't? We have a league admin that makes these rules and rest assured the rules are there for very good reasons, for the game to remain steady, safe and fun for everyone. Especially the ones concerning player space and physical contact. I'm 240 lbs and not too worried about someone running into me, that doesn't mean I get to waive the no contact rules because it suits me. Yes in lower divisions there tends to be more inclination to let some things slide but that doesn't make it right and doesn't show a good example for the people that are new.
Unfortunately our game did spiral out of control and seemed to get to the point where we would have just been better off calling the game. From the time in the second half when your team called a foul on the FAR end of the field from your bench and then players on your teams bench started cat calling our captain at the play because he asked what the call was and then after more discussion pleaded with both teams to try make the most of it. A player on your bench, again at the far end of the field suggested he shut up with his speech or maybe get the rule book out again, or on the last 10 plays whenever a player on your team caught the disc only to stop and ask if they were inbounds or out? Should we have just given up? Is this your teams idea of sportsmanship? I am very competitive but it took everything I had to stay on that field and not walk off regardless of if we were tied, winning or losing.
Attitudes like that rub off. Our team is not a malicious team and we haven't had any issues with spirit up until that game.
It was not an enjoyable game. The spirit was lost. Let's all move on and let our captains go over the rules with us at our next games and be more aware of our team's spirit.
Good luck out there Frosted Flicks. |
Considering that your team has docked spirit points off the last 5 teams it faced for poor sportsmanship and/or poor knowledge of the rules, I don't know how accurate this is or the circumstances in your previous games. But I do agree that as far as our game went I hope we can both learn and move on. Write it off to being one of those days that things zigged instead of zagged between our teams.
Good luck out there to you guys as well. |
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| FR8TRAIN wrote: | | I will say that I do agree with following the rules and making everyone aware of rules even if it does mean stopping game momentarily. Now I don't know where the infraction ocurred, but with the rule in question the only way I can see it being enforced is around the outside sidelines where there is actual chalk on the ground, but if it was made down the middle of the field it is pretty impossible even if you have "perspective" on the play to make a proper call as even on a good day some of the cones can be out of line, so I would say that good for noticing the rule but if it happens in the middle of the field and there is a dispute I would say that defering to the rule where the disc goes back to the previous player would be best to avoid animosity and delay of game. |
The only player who contested the call was actually contesting the rule, not the call. He admitted to landing on the line, but contested my call saying that the line was out. |
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