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Hello,
This scenario arises from time-to-time and I'm looking for clarification of the rule.
Scenario: A player catches a disc while 'laying out' or has otherwise fallen while making the catch. The player then throws the disc to a teammate while still on the ground. That is to say, without standing up and establishing a pivot foot.
Understanding: It is my understanding that this is considered travelling.
Question: Which rule applies? Option 1: It's a violation so the disc goes back to the handler and they are permitted to establish a pivot foot and the stall continues from 5 or less. Option 2: It's a foul and possession changes.
I did scan the rule book for an answer already but nothing jumped out at me. Perhaps I was looking in the wrong area?
Thanks,
Allan |
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This came up in our game on Sunday.
I thought that a player had to establish a pivot POINT. Not necessarily a foot.
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| Kewin wrote: | | I thought that a player had to establish a pivot POINT. Not necessarily a foot. |
A pivot is not always necessary (as in "the greatest") - only when they've come to a stop. See XV.C for more details.
In this case, a pivot is defined at II.M:
"... part of body in continuous contact ... ", so yeah, a butt or stomach will do. |
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Are there any DUC specific rules anymore? I remember either last year or the year before there was a DUC rule that specified that we were to establish a pivot foot, and not throw from the ground. All I see anymore is that we use version 11 rules.
Not trying to Hijack this thread, but also a few years ago there was a league rule that we could not block the disc with our body below the knee. Is that rule still in effect? |
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Hello,
This scenario arises from time-to-time and I'm looking for clarification of the rule.
Scenario: A player catches a disc while 'laying out' or has otherwise fallen while making the catch. The player then throws the disc to a teammate while still on the ground. That is to say, without standing up and establishing a pivot foot.
Understanding: It is my understanding that this is considered travelling.
Question: Which rule applies? Option 1: It's a violation so the disc goes back to the handler and they are permitted to establish a pivot foot and the stall continues from 5 or less. Option 2: It's a foul and possession changes.
I did scan the rule book for an answer already but nothing jumped out at me. Perhaps I was looking in the wrong area?
Thanks,
Allan |
XV.B
After catching a pass, a player is required to come to a stop as quickly as possible and establish a pivot.
XV. C
If a player catches the disc while running or jumping the player may release a pass without attempting to stop and without setting a pivot, provided that:
1. the player does not change direction or increase speed while in possession of the disc; and
2. the pass is released before three additional points of contact with the ground are made after possession has been established.
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| Platinum wrote: | | Are there any DUC specific rules anymore? |
I was asking about this last year as there was no specific place for them, and I believe the resolution is to list them in the Captain's Meeting minutes (available on the side nav bar), and probably discuss them in the Captain's Meeting.
Currently the only rules listed are:
11. Changes to 11 edition rules – no foot blocks (treat foot blocks as a foul), endzones are 18 yards |
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I think if you are on the ground (say your knees) when you first attempt to play the disc (such as faking a pass) .. It is then treated as establishing the pivot, so you then have to remain in that position until the play has been made or there is a turnover.
Foot blocks are still not allowed.
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Ok, here's what I understand to be true...
1. If you catch while running and/or jumping you CAN re-throw without having established a pivot foot.
2. If you catch but fall in the process you need to stand up and establish a pivot.
In the specific situation I raise, the player in question fell and then threw from the ground.
Still, the question remains whether a violation of this rule results in a turnover or if the disc simply goes back to the handler and the stall count resumes.
Hope that clarifies the aspect of the rule to which I'm seeking an answer.
Thanks,
Allan |
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| 2. If you catch but fall in the process you need to stand up and establish a pivot. |
Can you point to where the need to stand up comes from (so I can understand)?
From the definition of pivot in the rules (check II.M in UPA 11th ed.), it says any body part that remains in constant contact - so to me that means "any body part" i.e. butt, face, left elbow, etc. As best as I can tell there is nothing to the contrary i.e. only feet, or standing. |
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| Ddawg wrote: | | 2. If you catch but fall in the process you need to stand up and establish a pivot. |
Can you point to where the need to stand up comes from (so I can understand)?
From the definition of pivot in the rules (check II.M in UPA 11th ed.), it says any body part that remains in constant contact - so to me that means "any body part" i.e. butt, face, left elbow, etc. As best as I can tell there is nothing to the contrary i.e. only feet, or standing.[/QUOTE]
agreed.
you don't need to be standing to throw. but once you fake to throw, or pause to look to make a pass ie. don't stand up right away, you have committed yourself to establishing a pivot point, and moving from that position is a travel |
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Hello,
The logic (as I understood it to be) for requiring a handler to stand and establish a pivot foot before throwing if he/she fell to make the catch is one of safety.
Let's say the handler is sprawled out on the ground and reaches out to throw the disc. At the same time I'm running past them and step on said handler's hand, wrist, or arm. Unpleasant. Admittedly, also rather unlikely. Still, similar to the no foot/leg blocking rule, the issue is one of safety to all players.
OK, for argument's sake, let's assume throwing from a prone position is not allowed. Would doing so be a turnover or would the disc go back to the handler?!?
Allan |
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| OK, for argument's sake, let's assume throwing from a prone position is not allowed. Would doing so be a turnover or would the disc go back to the handler?!? |
Right. So for argument's sake:
XVI.H.4 - Reckless disregard for the safety of other players (or dangerously
aggressive behaviour)
or
XVI.J - Travel
In either case - the offense has possession - disc goes back to the thrower.
1. Reckless disregard is a pretty strong statement (the example they basically give is tackling a player).
2. It is not a travel.
If we assume that it is not allowed (like foot-blocks), we can also assume that it should be treated as a foul (like foot-blocks), i.e. back to thrower.
I can't see any scenario where it would be a turn-over.
Although there is nothing in DUC that currently prohibits throwing from a prone position (that I'm aware of), I can see stepping on someone's wrist sucking pretty bad. In this hypothetical case, (someone prone, and people running and jumping around, in the close vicinity) you could probably call it as a dangerous play.
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| Excellent! Thanks to everyone for their input. Now I can sleep...and dream about playing ultimate frisbee. |
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